How ADHD and Anxiety Are Related with EJ Mann


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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah
This is the adult with ADHD podcast, self empowerment for women with ADHD. Today we have a very special guest, ej man is a self described neurodiverse, non binary nature nerd, and an anxious asexual advocate. And we are going to jump into all that into this episode. How’s it going, AJ?

EJ
It’s going great. Thank you. Yeah.

Sarah
Thank you so much for joining us. Happy to have you. In New Zealand. Is that right?

EJ
Yeah, I’m Australian living in New Zealand at the moment. We moved over here, theoretically, for six months, just before the sort of the whole COVID thing and thing and so we’re we’re now here indefinitely, basically. Well, it was an accidental move. But it’s Yeah, it’s turned out really positively. so far. So good.

Sarah
Yeah. That’s great to hear. So tell us a bit about your diagnosis story. Yeah.

EJ
Okay. So, a bit is difficult. I’ll give you this. Yeah,

Sarah
it’s never a bit. Oh, yeah, please. Yeah.

EJ
So the short version is that I was diagnosed last year, when I was 36. I basically sought diagnosis after realizing that all of the friends that made the most sense to me had ADHD. They were the people that I you know, when we had conversations, we were talking at the same speed, we were all jumping around topics at the same sort of rate and length very comfortably doing that. And and yeah, they just made sense to me on a level that other people didn’t. Yeah, that’s the short version.

Sarah
Yeah, that’s great.

EJ
Yeah, I guess the longer version is like, I made it to 36 without seeking a diagnosis, because, like, I was definitely a I don’t know about a high performer, but I certainly did well in high school and university. Essentially, by focusing on the subjects that I had figured out how to do well at and dropping all the ones that I hadn’t, you know, anything, anything, anything fact and finger based, I was just like, Nope, that’s that’s too much. Remember? Anything that was like read these three books and draw all the themes between them? I was like, Yeah, great. So yeah, like English literature, all of that I majored in English at university, you know, got great marks all the way through, had no idea how to turn any of that into any kind of like, job skills. Yes. But yeah, after after a period of kind of flailing around with with different attempts at a career. I basically fell into a traineeship as a park ranger conservationist,

Sarah
that is so far out. That’s, that’s awesome.

That is I mean,

EJ
yeah, when you look at like, all the things I tried to be, it’s really clear that I was basically going, what excites me because I tried to be a writer. And then I tried to be a like theater tech, as in stage management, lighting kind of thing. So yeah, nothing boring. And then park ranger. I managed to stick with that one for 10 years, which is a pretty unusual,

Sarah
ADHD and ADHD years. Yeah, that’s a long time. It was like,

EJ
yeah. Fear of fear of trying to do any, like fear of losing the income and like trying to get into anything else. May Yeah, you just stay in it, and then leave. But basically, yeah, over those 10 years, I sort of, you know, got gradually sort of promoted up the line. And the more responsibility I got, the more stressful it got, the more massive my imposter syndrome got, the more mistakes I was making. Yeah. And yeah, basically, the more stress I was under, until the point where I basically after a conversation with my counselor, where she she was sort of like, well, let’s look at some other jobs you could do if you want to leave this one. And like, very helpfully, in her mind, like was going through all kinds of other ways that I could branch out from my current interests. And I was just listening to all of this going. I can’t picture myself doing any of those things. I can’t picture myself being able to do any of those things. Or anyone, you know, considering me at all competent to do any of those things. And kind of had a massive depression out of that. Yes.

Sarah
Yeah, that’s frightening.

EJ
Where it finally started to fall apart basically. By Yeah, I had a lot of leave work because I kept my in Australia for 10 years. You get annual leave. Which is I gather the leaf situation is very different over there. But, like, several months of lovely. Wait, nice. So I took that.

Sarah
That’s, that is so good.

Yeah,

EJ
yeah, I mean I’m very lucky over here. Oh, that’s great are there in Australia? But yeah, I took that. And then, like at the point where I had to go back I just couldn’t. I was just like, yeah, I can’t deal with this. So I kind of got a call center job and just, yeah, just go back and, and started really good finally trying to figure out what the hell was going on. And yeah, meanwhile I had a lot of friends I mean, I have a lot of friends who have depression, anxiety, ADHD, various things going on, and are often quite open talking about it online, which is lovely. Yes. And I’d spent years kind of listening to them and sympathizing with them and, you know, trying to look after them when things were going really badly, and simultaneously comparing myself to them and going. Well, that seems really familiar. And that seems really familiar. But clearly, there’s nothing wrong with me because I’m successful. I have a job. You know, clearly anything that feels bad to me is just me being a drama queen. And I have to get over myself. Like, yeah, I went through that for years. Like, yeah, even when I was dropped out of work and going, Okay, you know, everything is terrible. I still, I was just desperate to get diagnosed by someone else, because I couldn’t believe it until a professional told me, Sam foot first. Yes, you have anxiety? And then yes, you have ADHD? Like, yes. Now? Yeah, I, you know, I I remember sort of extended conversations with the counselor where I’d sort of try and talk her into telling me that I had these things. Very much one of those like, well, I don’t want to put a label on it, you know? Yeah. Like you being pathologized. And I was like, right. choice B.

Sarah
I know. I’m the same way. I need the label. Yeah. It needs to make sense. So yeah, with anxiety and ADHD, there seems like such an overlap that it seems like it would be hard to navigate both of those. Do you want to speak a little bit about how you’ve been able to attack both fronts?

EJ
How do yeah,

I mean,

EJ
you know, there is definitely a huge overlap, like, a lot of ADHD is it seems like have either anxiety or depression or both, as well. And like, the psychiatrist that I was seeing that was talking about this was very much of the opinion that it’s liable to be, you know, because ADHD is a is a neurodevelopmental thing. That’s something you you are born with, that a lot of the time that anxiety or depression will grow out of trying to then live with that in a world that is not set up for you. And I think, like, that makes a lot of sense to me. So I mean, like, I can definitely trace my anxiety back a long way. Like I switched schools in grade five, which is I’m not sure what the equivalent is, but I would would have been like 10.

Sarah
That’s about the same, I think, Okay. And like,

EJ
I got my first stress rash.

Sarah
Oh, I get those to the hives. Oh,

EJ
I mean, all that much about it, except that my parents had no idea what was going on. And I got to get an oil taken out of my leg. And eventually, they were like, stress rash. But like, so, you know, I have evidence that I was a pretty high, strong kid from quite a long way back. But like, I really think a big part of how I was successful for as long as I was until, like, you know, until I completely fell apart was the anxiety. Because, essentially, I think my brain had latched on to that as the easiest way to mask ADHD. So one of the most interesting things that I’ve found in my kind of journey to learning about ADHD is this concept of the like, interest based nervous system. So like, you know, we, when we’re engaged with something, we can do it, when we aren’t engaged, it’s really, really hard. And the things that engage us tend to be things that, like, arouse that nervous system. So it’s either excitement or fear. Yeah. And it’s really hard to stay excited about something like a full time job, but it’s really easy to live in permanent fear that they’re going to figure out, you know, good at it, and fire you. So, you know, I, you know, on a smaller level things like, you know, one of the one of the things my psychiatrist asked me was, like, you know, do you lose things a lot? And the answer was, no, I did when I was like, first out of home, I lost my wallet, my notepad, all that. And then I developed, you know, essentially OCD around the where, yeah, anywhere without checking my pockets, I knew exactly what thing had to be in what pocket and I would check my pockets anytime I stood up from somewhere, you know, and that was how I stopped losing things. And and basically, I just had a whole bunch of these kind of basically, be really stressed about something and therefore be okay with doing it. coping. Yes. You know, like, how You know, being late for anything was like, oh, excuse me. I had massive catastrophic thinking about being late for anything. Yeah.

Sarah
So you were always five minutes early then. Yeah. At least

EJ
on time. Yes.

Sarah
Oh, sorry. Nope. It’s okay. No, really relating to all this right now. Yeah. This all rings very true.

EJ
Yeah. So basically, yeah. Yeah, I I was able to keep my life very much under control by essentially holding the reins, you know, in white knuckled fits

Sarah
like a white knuckling it

EJ
Yes, by chance. And, you know, and not even really being aware I was doing it. I remember because I, you know, for the longest time, I’ve had back issues and neck issues and like headaches that would come on from from neck tension, I might, you know, have to regularly go and get someone to basically, you know, pummel my muscles into submission. You know, I had, I had one, my therapist who was like, wow, these are the, you know, tightest muscles I’ve ever seen. And I literally remember, like, walking into work one day and kind of going, Well, what if I’m more stressed than most people? And like, that was the first time that it really occurred to me. I was like, I think maybe my just the stress level is higher than other people. Like, I wonder why that is. That’s weird. And like, Yeah, not having an answer for that. And just kind of assuming that was also something I was stuck with.

Sarah
Yeah, that’s what I thought too. Like, yeah,

EJ
yeah. And yeah, it did keep me very, you know, on the surface successful, but it took a huge toll on my body, you know, as well as the headaches and the neck aches and that I developed IBS. Yes. Yes, very much linked to stress. And, you know, I have digestive issues to this day because of that. I developed and I mean, I don’t know that this is linked, but I’ve had various other sort of suppressed immune system conditions like urticaria, is that I mean, I haven’t, you know, this, this might be now me getting definitely out of my depth on the on the like, factual stuff I need. Right. Yeah. I feel like Generally, the people I know who, like, live with more stress tend towards more of those kind of physical conditions.

Sarah
Yeah, and I mean, I’ve known people who’ve had, like fibromyalgia and stuff like that, and the stress exasperates. That and fertility problems are impacted by stress. So to me, it would only follow that you’re probably right. I’m not a doctor. I would have to ask a terminal. But I’m from full circle.

EJ
Yeah.

Sarah
Yeah. It’s all interconnected. Exactly. It’s a holistic situation.

EJ
Yeah. Yeah. operating in different ways.

Sarah
Yeah. Yeah.

EJ
That was the whole thing.

Sarah
Oh, yeah. And I know, as someone who has learned how to better handle it, you do tell the difference. Like you can tell like, oh, wow, I was really sick. I was always sick. When you get to the other side, which, hopefully more of us do. are you? How are you getting to the other side? Are you progressing? Okay.

EJ
Yeah, definitely.

Mm hmm.

EJ
Yeah. So. So for me, the anxiety diagnosis came first. And that preceded the ADHD diagnosis by probably, oh, only a few months, but like, I spent those few months basically trying out antidepressants. Yeah. Which I went through, I think three or four different SSRIs which had no effect, but two effects or, or, well, they had bad effects. They weren’t useful effects, unfortunately, there.

Sarah
Oh, yeah, same. Try them. That was a terrible one. Yeah.

EJ
But eventually I got on to effects all which is an snri. And like, I’ve learned since then, is that the ending that is norepinephrine, which is something that ADHD brains also don’t make enough of, and so on the effects are I finally started to actually notice a real difference. And yeah, I mean, that that has absolutely kind of changed my life really. You know, I’m a lot. I’m a lot more relaxed about, about decision making about you know, letting go of that ion control over things and living You know, letting myself do things that I want to do without first going through every single possible way it could go wrong. You know that it’s definitely not perfect. But you know, the difference is very, very noticeable. Yeah.

Sarah
Being able to trust yourself more. Is that Yeah, yeah. That’s a feeling again. Yeah.

EJ
Yeah. And then interestingly, the ADHD symptoms, of course, have gotten a lot more noticeable since I’ve been on the effects or, because I’m not, again, exactly that line control over them. So you know, the right, choose the ADHD from the outside is increased, because, you know, I’m letting myself act on impulse. I’m letting myself just go You know what, the house is a mess today. I don’t care. It’s fine. You know, I’m, you’re being yourself. Yeah, I’m letting myself prioritize other things, then appearing to be completely perfectly organized, and together to the Oh, that would

be like, the

Sarah
healthiest thing in the world is like being yourself. How could you?

EJ
You know, it makes me look like much more of a hot mess for me out. Yes.

Sarah
This is healthy. I totally understand. Yep, that’s pretty huge. Yeah. And good. Good on you. Yeah. And now you’re gonna have a now you’re gonna have a podcast about your experiences. I am going to tell us a bit about that. No,

EJ
go ahead. backtrack a bit before we get to that.

Sarah
Yes, yes. Yes.

EJ
That was one thing that I that you in the questions that you sent me that really struck me thinking now that we’ve just sort of managed to skip over? That was the question, like, what’s been the most challenging part for me about like, Oh,

Sarah
I see it now. Yes. Number two? Number two be? Yeah. Stop and think about Yeah, go for it. Yeah.

EJ
Because there’s, you know, from a certain perspective, you could say the anxiety made my life less challenging, you know, it made it made me able to hold on a job, it made me able to, you know, not lose my stuff all over the place. But, you know, apart from the physical cost to my body, like, the really challenging part, and the part that, you know, even now that I’m on good anxiety medication hasn’t yet, it’s the part that I’m still really struggling with is being able to take joy from things that I do just for myself, or things that I do, because I want to create something. So I mean, you know, writing was a big one is podcast idea is a big one, anything. Anything that feels like, it’s kind of putting a bit of myself out into the world, very quickly gets hung up on, but then people are gonna judge me What if I do it wrong? What if I do it badly? To the point where so in my like, in my like, journey to become a more creative soul again, one of the things I tried was coloring books, because nice books had such a craze. And so I you know, someone gave me a coloring book for Christmas, I think. And I got a bunch of textures. And, like, the theory with coloring books, right? Is it supposed to be super Zen and relaxing? Because you just put the colors wherever you like, and whenever I froze up, yeah, like, first time I sat there with a completely blank black and white pattern in front of me. I was like, I’m gonna do it wrong. You know, how do I need to think about this beforehand, I need to figure out exactly what colors are going to go where cuz I’m gonna mess it up. I’m like, this is a frickin coloring book, you know? Yes, serves no purpose, except to let me theoretically let off some steam. And, you know, it was such a huge deal in my head. And that, that is so frustrating and tragic to me, because it’s like, you know, what could I be creating? What can I be putting out there if I wasn’t putting so much freaking, like, putting so much thought into it beforehand that I think myself to death basically, you know, that that whole concept of like, you, you know, you you put out 100 bad books in order to put out one good work, you know, I do put out 100 works in the first place is, you know, is a momentous, yes, impossible effort for me because every my brain is doing this, you know, how do I make it perfect? how, you know, I don’t know how to step back from it. And there are you know, there are tricks that I’ve had to sort of learn an employee with things like writing like turning My my texts completely white. So I’m writing in white text on a white background. Because I love it, I can start judging it like, Yes, yeah, it’s super useful. But like, I like that I still need to do that is so frustrating. You know, when you’re when everything is it’s so easy to stop myself before I even begin. And that that is a habit that I would really love to to learn to lose, basically.

Sarah
That’s a Yeah, I, when you were when you were talking about the coloring? I had a revelation recently that I don’t know how to play.

Oh,

Sarah
I don’t get it. I don’t get it. I don’t know how to do it. I have a three and a half year old. It’s a requirement.

But I

Sarah
I’m just like, I try to get my husband to be the recreation dude. And then it’s like, if you want movies, or art or board games, I’m your gal. But it doesn’t work. Yeah, exactly. I’m your gal. If you want to sit down something, see, you know, I’m in a ton of type. So I’m very in my head, I want to sit, I don’t want to do all the puppy things. That’s, that’s why I had a cat and not a dog. So I don’t want to run around and do things. And but yeah, so just realizing recently, I don’t know how to play ever since the pandemic. I mean, I have to entertain my kid, like, all day, you know. And so it’s like, or at least I, at least when I’m with her, I have helped a family helping but like when I’m I’m with her a lot more than I was. So I have those plans you’re going to be playing at some point just playing will occur. But yeah, have the same revelation You did? Like, how could I not even play? Like, how sad is that? Like, I can’t even I’m so worried about screwing up playing that I can’t even play? Yeah, it’s really interesting that you frame it that way too. Because like, that was one of the like recurring things for me through my life

EJ
that really only started to make sense with the with the anxiety diagnosis was like, the real like, not knowing how to have fun. Yes, I would. I would naturally. Yeah. Like I was I was I was under the impression I was introvert for years. Yeah, all of the things that I that I did for for hobbies were I don’t know why I put the finger marks on that all the things I didn’t know, they were hobbies, but they weren’t, you know, I wasn’t necessarily taking joy from them. You know, I was itching. I was whatever. And I was doing those things, because they let me chill out. You know, they were relaxing. They were things I could do that were low stress. But that was the closest I had to fun was low stress, because everything else I did was so freaking stressful.

Sarah
Yes. And everything I had to do had to have an output. It couldn’t be fun. For fun sake, there had to be an output or why am I doing it? Like, I don’t get it. So coloring would be hard. It’s like, well, I get a picture at the end. Whoo

EJ
hoo. Like. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned board games, like, yeah, I’ve absolutely embraced knitting. So I do a lot of cross stitch. And that’s great. Because it’s creativity, where someone else tells me exactly what to do.

Sarah
I yes.

EJ
put any thought into how to make sure it’s going to come out? Well, because I just follow someone else’s plan. And it comes out well, and yeah, yes, there’s skill in what I’m doing. But there’s no creativity in that, in that innovative sense. Yeah, laying down my own words, or my own colors, or I mean, yes, I guess I’m choosing fabric colors beyond colors. But you know, it’s very minimal. There’s a lot of structure that someone else is imposing that I can trust, to get me to an outcome that I will be happy.

Sarah
Like all the decision making and the the cognitive pressure of just, you know, it’s like people who share a recipe with you. And they don’t use actual measurements. And they’re just like, following some of this and throw in some of that and strangle them because you’re like, no, I need numbers. I need quantities. I need, how many ounces? I’m going to measure this when I get I can’t just wing it in the kitchen. I know. It doesn’t happen.

EJ
It’s like we need recipes from Tom told me exactly how to do this so it will be maximally enjoyable.

Sarah
Yeah, so if I wing it in the kitchen, people will suffer like I’ve winged it before. I made some holiday pie and I swear one of our family members looked down at it like it was roadkill? Like, what is that? You know, that’s what happens when I win it. You didn’t want me winging it, give me numbers.

EJ
Our household so my beloved does all the dinners which is amazing. I love this arrangement. That’s awesome. He does the cooking and I do the baking. Because baking is, is food science. It’s putting chemistry together doing exactly this with it. And food comes out and I love it.

Sarah
Yes, what to do? Ah, that. That makes sense. I could see why that works. That’s why like food kits, it’s like, clean it, cut it, whatever. And all assemble it. Yeah, fine, you know,

EJ
being like all throw in some of this, and I’ll throw in some of this. Like, no, that’s awesome. I love it. I love that I have someone else. But you know, I wanna I want to be able to do that with with the things that interest me, which is, you know, writing and podcasting. And, and I mean, you know, even like knitting, it’d be great to make my own patterns.

Sarah
Yeah, just have more joy in your life and less fear and less, you know, what’s the output or less perfectionism? Yeah, exactly.

EJ
More or less, just throw this at the wall and see what sticks more and more. Let’s just try some stuff.

Sarah
Being comfortable with uncertainty and yeah. Straight, you know, not requiring straight edges and lines. Yeah. And that’s like, a lot of masking, you know, people.

I was

Sarah
like you I was hyper aware of those things. And people think, well, you’re the most organized person in the world. What are you talking about? You don’t have ADHD, like, and they come in?

EJ
For the most person in the world? Like, yeah, Christ is great for that. Because, yes, any possible disorganization feels like the end of the world. Right? Or you will, so you will absolutely weigh yourself into making sure that everything is perfectly organized at

Sarah
all times. I used to carry on notebook, to the point where people would laugh at me, like, they call me notebook girl. And I’m like, why is this such a novel thing that I would take notes? Like, why is this novel? I doesn’t ever want to take notes. But I there must have been something about the way I was doing it, where people were like, there she is with her notebook again. You know, like, I just had to write everything down. Because you know, uh, you mentioned making mistakes at your job. And I was at that breaking point where I was having a pathological fear of messing up. So yeah, I’m gonna write down everything. And now I record everything. I had a meeting with a client, and I was like, Can I record this conversation just so I can replay it? You know, which is a very weird thing to ask for. But luckily, for me, it was, um, it was content related. So it kind of jive like, well, I want to capture this digitally, because it’s more efficient if I have this audio file. So I was able to, like, turn it into an efficiency measure. But, but yeah, I mean, and that’s a whole other episode of just, you know, a come, you know, self advocating in the professional world, you know, in

EJ
advocating, I mean, professional, but also personal, like just being being comfortable to say, Hey, can I do it this way? It looks weird to you, but it works for me. And not, you know, succumbing to that fear of being judged and considered weird. Yeah.

Sarah
Hey, I don’t like loud. I don’t like loud places. Can we meet somewhere quiet? I hate noise.

It freaks me out.

Sarah
I hate fireworks, please. I I don’t do parades. I don’t do fireworks like, yeah, or like, Oh, hey,

EJ
this restaurant has a TV. Can I please have the seat with my back to it? Yeah, otherwise you’re gonna lose me. What you say?

Exactly.

EJ
You know, something completely uninteresting to me. Like I’m still like

Sarah
that. It’s like suddenly soccers most interesting thing in the world. You’re like, I don’t even care. Why am I watching this? Yeah.

EJ
Fall of your brain is going. So

Sarah
did you want to? Yeah.

No, I,

Sarah
I’m so glad you went back there. Because that’s such a huge, that’s a huge part of it all. And I think we tend to forget if it’s been too long, but I’m glad you brought it up because that’s a very real thing.

EJ
Like, yeah, it’s

Sarah
a very basic thing that that people experience when when they’re dealing with anxiety. So did you want to tell people about about your podcast, you mentioned your You’re jumping out there, you’re, you’re gonna do it.

EJ
Yeah. Very trying to do the whole don’t think it Don’t overthink it, just do it. Just do it.

Sarah
Yeah. What’s it about?

EJ
Yeah,

Sarah
so it’s about,

EJ
I mean, basically the stuff we’ve talked about today, plus, it is yet another HD podcast. But I guess the the angle that I’m going for with it, I should say it’s called Hummingbird brain. And it’s going to be very personal noise, I definitely want to get other people going to be a record of my journey towards understanding my brain understanding ADHD, understanding your diversity more broadly, like, I mean, part of it is, you know, I’ve really let in to the, you know, you’re a diverse community on Twitter and online, and that’s fantastic. But there’s a lot of concepts that get thrown around there, but that catch me out, like, leave me going, what’s what’s twice exceptional, you know, why are people talking about this? Now? What? Yes. And so I feel like, you know, if I’m going to do a bunch of research, figure out what the heck’s going on, then, you know, I can share that with the output, people, but frankly, I am terrible at actually putting in the research, when it’s just for me, I’m looking things up to explain them to other people. The same things. If it’s, you know, if it’s just me, I’ll go, Oh, I don’t get that. I should look better. Moving on.

So, yeah, it’s

EJ
serving on that level. But I’m hoping that it’s also helpful for other people in that, you know, it’s another perspective on what ADHD feels like, potentially also what autism feels like, because I’m still really trying to figure out whether I’m autistic. And that’s a whole thing I can talk about. It’s a queer angle on it. So I’m not binary and asexual. Yes. So and those are perspectives that I haven’t really seen, represented as much in the podcast world. And it’s interesting, because there actually is this massive overlap between queer folk and neuro diverse folk, like to a statistically significant level, where Yes, you are one, you are more likely to be the other, which is a whole fascinating thing that I will definitely get into at some point.

Yeah, and, you

EJ
know, although I’m aiming it to be a brain podcast, you know, my, my queer identities very much play into who I am, as well. And so I definitely want to include that. Yes. So the idea is to make it very much as I’m in the process of figuring out what’s going on with me what it all means and and how to live with it. You know, at this point, I’m still. So I’m working part time, I’m, I’ve picked up some conservation work again, but I’m still very much feeling my way towards the question of like, what does my future look like? Now? You know, I’ve established that I can’t go back to what I had. What am I going towards? And so yeah, sharing that journey. And like, I feel like a lot of the ADHD podcasts that I listened to, which I love. I’m from very much a, well feel like they come from a much more finished point of view, not in the sense of, you know, yeah, Dad look, but from the sense of like, you know, here we are, in our settles careers as ADHD coaches, or whatever, you know, talking about your here’s my success story. It’s like, well, I don’t have one of those yet. But yeah, yeah, like, so. So yeah, some of the episodes may well be about just how terribly I’m doing right now. And like, you know, I’m very much going for a warts and all kind of thing. Like, it’s not good, yes. It’s not going to be I’m only going to tell you about the things that are going well, it’s it’s going to be you know, here’s how I’m struggling. And here’s how I’m doing well. And here’s some of the strategies that I’m using to do better. But also, you know, here are some of the ways it’s not working for me. So I really want it to be something that Yeah, takes people on that journey and makes it okay to be both struggling and succeeding, if that makes

Sarah
sense. Yes, it makes total sense and the words and all thing. I mean, just from my experience, though, those really resonate the most the warts and all type of conversations and people really appreciate those in a world where everything’s so whitewashed, and you know, airbrushed and when we we need more words at all.

EJ
Yeah, I think I think online to present, you know, the best side of yourself. And I think a lot of what I love about the neuro diverse community and about people who I get really close to online is that they they just say To hell with that, you know, I love it. The terrible things that are going on Well,

yeah,

I love it. Well,

yeah. Well, thank

Sarah
you so much for being on this show. And I cannot wait to hear your podcast. And this is. This is gonna be one of my best episodes. I think I think this was a fabulous conversation and it’s so lovely to meet you. Oh, thank you.

EJ
Um, do you want to do the wicked people? Yes. See,

Sarah
this is why we help each other out on these things.

I was telling

Sarah
ej earlier that a lot of my guests helped keep me in line. Just let’s just work it off here. Um, so yeah, I don’t want to sound like,

EJ
I feel like pointing that one out. makes it sound like I’m here to promote myself.

Sarah
We have a time difference. And so for ej it is it’s another day

EJ
in the sunshine

Sarah
fresh and awake and medicated and, and so Meanwhile, for me, it’s nighttime medicine was a long time ago. I’m just kind of winging it. But that’s,

EJ
I mean,

Sarah
oh, let me check. I’m 9:46pm

EJ
Yeah, I’m useless after about like, after about eight or so I’m just like, just probably in front of the TV.

Sarah
I turn into a pumpkin around six or seven.

EJ
But I

Sarah
I really wanted to make this interview work with my Australian and New Zealanders that I have met on Twitter and it’s worth it. So it’s okay. And I’m really glad that you’ve reminded me that we had our interview today because I feel so much better now. Because I was kind of feeling sorry for myself and feeling blue. But it was nice to be able to do this interview and get out of my head and do something I love and you know, so

yeah. Yay. All right.

EJ
I feel like I want to make it clear that I remind you by saying hey, we so long because I’m gonna be

Sarah
on brand we are on brand. ej Thank you very much. Have a wonderful day.

Again

Where can we

EJ
tell you Sarah and then I will let you sleep.

Sarah
Wow, this is hilarious. What’s it all?

EJ
Because this Hummingbird brain at the moment is upcoming but the photos were released in October so by the time this episode happens, it should exist. My website which also is in the process of existing but by the time this goes out should should exist. My website is Hummingbird brain.me that time bird brain dot E and on Twitter. I am ej humming brain.

Sarah
Okay, Jay, thank you very much. It’s been so much fun. Have a good one. Okay. Okay. Bye

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